@RJG I often times wear on ocbd with with a tie and sport coat, if Im wearing an actual suitI avoid the whole problem by wearing a pinned club collar with suits. If you show me pictures that contradict my opinion, thats because theyre pictures of old men. I like the button down collar. OCBD with a suit should depend on the fabric, shouldnt it? Cmon. Americans tend to wear lots of stuff that simply doesnt work.so, in this context, the preponderance of something, hardly makes it appropriate. Warhol might have worn OCBDs, but he was no traditionalist. In the first reference, they are specifically speaking about an oxford cloth buttondown. The point collar and a collar pin that Bruce sported not too long ago simple, elegant and stylish. of great informative website. What do you think?. European wisdom? Wearing a button down oxford/pinpoint shirt as formal business attire is the same as wearing loafers with a formal business suitit screams, Im having trouble growing up. I think men look best with it around their neck. Some exceedingly casual people even use button-down to refer to any shirt that has buttons. Is the oxford too Americacentric to take abroad? Button-down is the essence of business, Britain be-damned. A broadcloth shirt with a buttondown collar, or even a pinpoint oxford would go quite nicely with a suit. If follks on here think thats something to celebrate, fetishize, and memorialize, so be it. Filed Under: Fred Astaire, OCBD, Oxford Cloth Buttondown Shirts, Paul Newman, Q and Answer, Shirts, Style & Fashion Drawings: Small Bandana Tips, Where To Shop To Take Advantage Of The Exchange Rate, Inside Track: July 31st August 5th Edition. Your email address will not be published. Wearing an Oxford cloth button down shirt pays homage to the style and more casual look. Also I love bow ties with BDs. We were responding less to the when in Rome (or London) angle than the blanket assertion that a buttondown is not a dress shirt. A graduate with an accounting degree asks, How much does it cost? And who is Paul Winston anyway? Im with RWK, GQ is a shit publication which promotes whatever their advertisers are pushing. Press is nearly singular in its support. Are you certain their intentions are ironic? Balderdash. My issue is with them making the rather forced jump to formal, business suit attire. I stand corrected there is a single, washable tropical (hows the washable suit stood the test of time.?) Privacy & Affiliate Policy A spirit of youth is what has guided the Ivy/preppy approach to dressing for 90 years. And it is far less of a sartorial sin than wearing a pink shirt or brown shoes with a navy suit. In my casual office place, it allows me to dress a step above, while still having an air of relaxation. In last months issue of GQ, the magazine managed to twice make an assertion that puzzled us here in Tradsville: namely, that a buttondown-collared shirt is not a dress shirt. Go tell it to the ghost of Giovanni Agnelli and JFK. Its purposefully nonchalant roll acts as a counterpoint to an otherwise sedate outfit and tends to give the impression of dressed-down and approachable respectability; figuratively as well as literally, it softens the stiff edges of the appearance. They werent considered significant. Which is it? I do not remember him in anything but a Brooks Brothers button down. Perhaps if more people had read his book, fewer people would pay any attention to anything that Glenn OBrien says about anything. The traditional core. The pink OCBD I bought last week will be worn with chinos (with or without a jacket), jeans, or a suit. Remember that. Crew to H&M, its pretty clear to me that they no longer work in most formal office or business environments. Just to add fuel to the fire, here is Rubin again, in a formal suit with a button-down collar as well as ummm gasp LOAFERS! Clearly, the readership of this blog cares about this issue. Even Knowles picked a pink shirt to be his emblem of non-traditionalism in 1959s Separate Peace. Chinos for everything from playing sports to meeting royalty? I understand that people like you, Im guessing who like to wear OCBDs with suits and ties will disagree with me. all of which would be far more acceptable with more casual shirting and none of which would be acceptable in a large percentage of todays white collar, business settings. Im all for tradition, but even within traditional style, customs change (albeit slightly). I see a lot more aspiration and fetishism in people wearing pink spread collar shirts (Look at me wearing my Windsor collar like the Duke or some British lord). We should all remember that the button down collar shirt, introduced by Brooks Bros. in the late 1890s, was pattered after the shirts of polo players and was exclusively included on sport/casual shirts straight through the 1950s. Sure, as college/Ivy/sportswear styles took off, the style made its way into corporate/formal wear.just like sweatpants and t shirts have made their way into nice restaurants, baseball caps into places of worship, pajamas onto commercial airlines, yoga pants and athletic gear into supermarkets and shops of all kinds, flip flops into cities, and chinos and short sleeved polo shirts into casual Fridays across the land. Its not the buttondown collar thats out of place with a suit, its the coarse (for want of a better term) weave of the oxford cloth. It follows certain traditions that have existed, which I acknowledge. The button-down shirt has been accepted office attire, even in the stuffiest old-line law firms and corporate law departments, since at least just after WWII; and that would include a period during which men of that profession would rarely if ever wear a suit that was anything but blue or gray. Personal opinion here, folks, not a pronouncement on correctness.. Info For Advertisers, How To Pack A Suit Jacket Without Wrinkling It, 7 Ways To Build Sexual Tension With Woman Through Text, 10 Dining Etiquette Rules Every Man Must Know, Talking To Women: 17 Conversation Tips For Men, 15 Men's Habits That Are Turn Offs For Women (Avoid At All, What To Wear To A Classy Bachelor Party . I have to agree with AEV when he writes, You all seem to fetishize the OCBD believing that its a symbol of something aspirational or some sort of signal of unstudied nonchalance/youthful rebellion. Treason! Those are in general the rules. I think the graphic in the article is part of this tendency to put down those with liberal arts degrees. It is the most American of collars, and its intent which is also the great virtue of American clothing generally is to relax the appearance, to bring a touch of dishabille to the formality of business garb. Join our free Newsletter and get style advice and new content updates sent straight to your inbox! You can check out here You've got to check out this video. Then the blazer, sport coat, always with OCBDS, never with pointed or spread collared shirts. Your second mistake was taking them seriously. GQs second betrayal of our nations sartorial heritage comes by way of the graphic below, where the buttondown is associated with liberal-arts-degree underemployment, in contrast to the semi-spread collar, which ensures rapid career advancement: But the only thing more fickle than fashion is fashion editors, and GQ seems to have a split personality when it comes the subject of buttondowns. He routinely bashed monograms until he got a gig with J.Crew extolling the virtues of ironic monograms and claiming you should get AHA or something else stupid stitched on your shirt for a big premium. Im not sure any one reads GQ for their style advice these days, however you have a point. Yes, I do indeed link my preferences to tradition and custom both my own personal traditions and those that happen to be (ironically) profiled in the Brooks catalog from 1980..perhaps those that believe OCBDs are well-paired (and well established) with formal suiting should spend some time studying it. The shirt was the introduction. Really, its just a casual shirt that has no place under a formal suit. Let's go with something that's made perhaps from a worsted wool or it's got a bit of a napped surface to it, or even a silk tie that has a very casual pattern to it. #1: The Brooks Brothers Must-Iron OCBD | The Made in America Database, 7 vc, kter byste mli vdt ped nkupem koile | Prav Gentleman, Ask dapperQ: Dressing Up, Dressing Down Oxford? It is definitely something to celebrate. I respect the point of view that the button-down is too casual for a suit. The speaker was very adamant that men should never wear a button-down collar shirt with a suit, only with a blazer. What do I mean by casual? I have no prejudice towards the straight collar, I just prefer the button-down, same as my father. If you're wearing a shirt by itself or wearing a sports jacket, that's when the button-down looks pretty good because it matches the casual nature of the outfit that you're trying to pull off. For a European eye button down is a sport-country shirt,perfect with wool sweaters,odd sport jackets,or in summer without any jacket. I wear them with my old school Burberry blazer with the burnished Prorsum buttons, too. Just becasue you can does not mean you should. I am English and have always worn a white button-down to every job interview of mine and got every job. CHRISTIAN CHENSVOLD & CHRISTOPHER SHARP. sorry to emjkmj for unconsciously repeating his Warren Buffett observation. Always tassel loafers. The other thing that makes me laugh is when very young guys make pronouncement about tradtion. Get a life frat boys. Press man, wearing nothing but traditional soft-shouldered, undarted, single-vented Ivy League suits, I think youre fine. Matching it with a tie, ties are a bit more formal in nature, although there are many casual ties. I surprise how so much attempt you put to make the sort However, the button-down shirt is an American classic that has spread around the world, and may be worn wherever one feels comfortable doing so. I will say that I dont, anymore, wear a tie with a button down collar, but in the 60s, when I spoke to Thomas Gates about a position at Morgan Bank, he was wearing a button down collar and a gold tie pin. But God help you if you start dressing like a Continental. Regular OCBD fabric looks too casual. I think for the non-rubes its fairly obvious that Im only using the term formal business suit to differentiate and avoid confusion. It's pretty important, and you don't want to ever make anyone feel small or inferior because really, what does it say about you as a person? Days when you were primarily at your desk, very little internal or external exposure on that day or week. The recipient of an education that featured a core curriculum, no doubt. I have never once said that I think loafers and suits are appropriate (aside from casual, cotton suits). The good news? Be the best-dressed man on the bus! I would guess that in todays women writers courses Anne Bradstreet is either ignored or takes a back seat to inferior writers whose observations are rooted in political motivation which, as Trilling observed, almost always leads to mediocrity if not ruin. It is a strong look. Since to those days unbuttoned button down are become part of sprezzaturarepertoire. We demean the very foundation of human achievement when we look to such factors as a basis to levy a kind of pre-judged value on the work of its creator. It was the dominant style. OCBD vs spread, its all about venue, like shoes or leather mask. Im sure if the London visitor were to wear a more refined fabric button down with a smooth worsted suit he would not receive the ridicule. No sensible American could object to wearing one with a poplin, seersucker, or tweed suit and a tie, and Id extend that to any suit with some roughness in the texture. Including the sciences, math, history, and philosophy. Not to pick on AEV, because I like his critical viewpoints and willingness to take on group think, but when I see pictorials on Unabashedly Prep of young guys in a navy suit, pink spread collar shirt, and brown shoes, all moral authority on dictating what constitutes tradition goes out the window. Then again, I dont wear bow ties with suits, but do, occasionally, with my stroller (semi-formal day wear). I studied the Science of Style in London, Hong Kong, and Bangkok and have created over 5000 videos/ articles to help men dress better. Americans have always worn buttondown- collars with suits. has put it exactly right and identified a real tragedy in our approach to education. Starting sometime around the middle of the 20th century, that included wearing button-down collared oxfords with suits. Stop it. I love the iGent speak about fetishizing clothes or styles being aspirational. Just doesnt work with plain old oxford cloth button downs. Its ironic that the term button-down means stuffy, overly formal, etc., when the button-down-collar shirt is the least formal of the dress shirts. Hence, many a proper dresser, eased into OCBD and loafers with, the suit. . I love OCBDs as casual/semi-formal shirting but, fetishizing it, as AEV accurately states, as a formal suit pairing is not only weird, but it will have you all looking like youre playing dress up (see George Will) great for blogs, not great for real life. A graduate with a liberal arts degree asks, Do you want fries with that?. Young guys wearing OCBDs with suits today look like old fashioned Poindexters playing dressup or hipsters who stumbled upon the J.PressxUrban Outfitters rack (not unlike the young guys that start wearing bow ties too early.). I dont. Almost no one will notice, or care about, the style of your shirt collar. How about we ask the Brits to take their sartorial cues from us when theyre over here, and we take ours from them over there? Henry, Ill grant as much and likely more. Never engage an unarmed man in a battle of the wits. Still, the suit. I see nothing wrong with wearing a button-down with a tie, I think they look sufficiently smart! You all seem to fetishize the OCBD believing that its a symbol of something aspirational or some sort of signal of unstudied nonchalance/youthful rebellion. To clarify: I never said my stance on OCBDs under a formal/business suit (or any fashion related positions, for that matter) was anything but my opinion; an educated, well-defined opinion based on the origins and traditions associated with the style.but, an opinion not a rule nontheless. J. Rubin? Let me just go ahead and explain the rules of button-down collars and then I'll talk about the bigger issue, which is what if you see someone violating the rule. The reality is that the Italians do it in a fashion-forward, almost ironic way.not in a classic, traditional manner. The prep blogosphere is full of additional examples of this casualization of traditional clothing into non-casual situations (e.g. The picture they used at the top was not an OCBD it was nearly see through obviously broadcloth or end on end. You have a dogmatic tone in presenting your subjective preferences and routinely back them with appeals to tradition, history, custom, rules and sartorial logic, and bang them out on the keyboard like a hammer on an anvil. Click here to discover The Style System , the BEST Professional Style Course on the planet!